Sifting Through the Madness

by Darren W. Miller on December 21, 2008

A Conversation With Michael J. Phillips,
Founder and Editor of Bukowski.net

From the moment I read my first Bukowski poem (“so you want to be a writer?”) in my first Bukowski book (“sifting through the madness for the Word, the line, the way”), I was hooked.

I had never read anything like it, and I wanted more—and more.

Over the next several years, I would buy a new Bukowski book—a collection of poems, columns, stories, letters, essays, or a full-length novel—whenever possible. The sheer volume of his work is matched only by the quality of it all. As my writing partner (who first recommended Bukowski) and I often do during late-night, wine-drinking phone conversations, picking any page number from any collection results in the same reaction: “Wow!”

Bukowski Collection

I found myself turning to Bukowski—for inspiration, for enjoyment, for truth—more often than any other writer who lives on the shelves of my library. I recently read a quote from Bukowski that best describes his own work, though perhaps not intended to do so:

“An intellectual says a simple thing in a hard way. An artist says a hard thing in a simple way.”

Bukowski, in that sense, is the greatest of artists. The pretentiousness that consumes so many poets, so much poetry, is nowhere to be found.

Charles Bukowski

I occasionally took stock of my Bukowski collection—16 one week, 22 a month later, then 29, 33, and now 36. The addiction had really taken hold, and I wanted to amass all of his work still in print and readily available. It was difficult, however, to assess what titles I lacked.

Despite the growing popularity of Bukowski, there seemed to be surprisingly little on the Internet—at least in terms of a quality, comprehensive site dedicated to the man and his work. Then, in search of a bibliography to help determine what books I still needed, I rediscovered bukowski.net. From a “works database” to a “checklist” of published works (revealing, by the way, that I’m only a few short of my goal), from a gallery of Bukowski photos to a gallery of his paintings, from a collection of original manuscripts (more than 600 poems) to Bukowski’s FBI files to a robust and well-attended forum, bukowski.net has filled the void for any and all Internet-connected Bukowski fans.

Michael J. Phillips, the man behind bukowski.net, recently discussed the site, his love of Bukowski, what comprises his personal collection, his favorite works, and much more with The Madness of Art:

MOA: When and how did you first get turned on to Bukowski? Was it a particular poem or story, a collection perhaps, that caught your attention and drew you in?

mjp2MJP: Bukowski was really not on my radar until about 20 years ago when I was out at a tiny place in the high desert of Joshua Tree for a week with no TV or radio, just me and the jackrabbits and tortoises. There was a copy of “South of No North” lying around, and I picked it up and read it all in one bite. I was instantly hooked and went on to read all of the short story collections and novels. I avoided the poetry until I got to the books that mix short stories and poetry, and when I finally did read some of the poems I felt like an idiot for ignoring them. Some people think he was strongest when writing prose, but I disagree. I love the prose, but the poems are a far deeper well to dip into.

MOA: When did you decide to start your site dedicated to all things Bukowski? Why?

MJP: In the forum I always say I do it all for selfish purposes, and that’s partly true. It started in 1996 as a section of smog.net. It was really no more than a place to collect what I and others knew about Bukowski. You have to remember, there were no 400-page biographies in those days, Black Sparrow hadn’t published Krumhansl’s bibliography. So information was generally found in tiny literary magazines that were hard to come by. Anyway, smog.net used to feature different artists, writers, photographers and assorted weirdness. The Bukowski section drew about half of the 1,500 daily visitors though, so it occurred to me that it would be better off on it’s own domain. I moved it to bukowski.net in the beginning of 2006, so it’s been almost three years.

Before the forum took off, the main draw of the site was the database of poems and stories. It’s an easy way to find which book a particular piece is in, or which pieces are in a particular book. Building the database is a task I never would have taken on had I known it was going to be never-ending. I figured, “Hey, he’s dead, there’s an end, right?” But there isn’t. Someone is always pulling some obscure old magazine out of an attic and discovering a poem we didn’t know about. It’s ridiculous. But to get back to the question of ‘why,’ I built the database for my own use. Once it was up and running though, dropping it into the site seemed obvious and necessary. I believe in sharing knowledge. Believe it or not, the entire Internet used to be based on the philosophy of freeing the world’s knowledge and data and making it available to everyone. But, you know, that was a long time ago.

MOA: It seems to me that there is this stereotypical caricature of Bukowski as the hard-drinking, womanizing, brawling brute among the uninitiated, and, to some extent, even some fans? How does that portrayal get it wrong?

A raw nerve dangling out in a dust storm

MJP: It doesn’t really get it wrong. At least insofar as the myth Bukowski built and perpetuated throughout his life is concerned. He wanted people to believe that he was a brute. I can certainly understand how a person could skim a couple of books, watch Barfly and come away with that impression. But if you read more than a few books, especially if you get into the poetry, you find the drunk-tough-guy-ladie’s-man bit is really an elaborate con. There is an extreme sensitivity on display in much of the work. I could pick a few dozen poems and put them into a collection without an author’s name on the cover and people would read it and think, jesus christ, who is this poor tormented bastard? He’s like a raw nerve dangling out in a dust storm. Another thing I think is commonly overlooked is the underlying humor in a good chunk of the work. The novel “Women” is hilarious to me, but people read it as straight autobiography and come away with a completely diferent impression. If you assume that Bukowski was often writing with tongue in cheek, I believe you get a more accurate view of who he really was.

Bukowski at Desk in 1978, courtesy of bukowski.net

MOA: Why is it that Bukowski (and his work) isn’t treated more seriously as a great poet/writer and important American figure?

MJP: Because it was, and is, popular. The people who grant their golden status upon writers and artists will always and predictably dismiss anything that is popular as being inferior. “If those…people…like it, it cannot have any real value!” Many of them also believe the myth, which is funny, really. These are supposed to be the learned and wise in our culture, right? They’re just as shortsighted and idiotic as the people they believe they are superior to.

MOA: What is it that you most love about Bukowski’s work?

The humor.
The humanity.
The honesty.

MJP: The humor. The humanity. The honesty. And the fact that the supply never seems to dwindle. I fully expect to see a “new” poem collection 20 years from now. There is work all over the place and much of it remains uncollected. It’s not all great, but if you have read everything, even the second rate stuff is interesting to read.

MOA: If someone who has never read any Bukowski asked, what one book, one collection, would you recommend as his or her introduction?

dangling_tournefortia_bukowskiMJP: Probably one of the books that mix poems and short stories: “Septuagenarian Stew,” “Betting on the Muse,” or one of the anthologies. If you’re going straight to the poems, “Dangling in the Tournefortia” is his masterpiece, as far as I’m concerned. I clearly remember reading it for the first time and stopping around page 75 and thinking, “So far every one of these has been great…what the hell?” And the book continued on with equally strong work all the way through. After you’ve read Bukowski for a while you sort of come to accept that there are going to be a few poems in each book that don’t work for you one way or the other. But “Dangling,” man, that book is really something.

Most people are introduced to Bukowski through the novels “Post Office” and “Ham on Rye.” Both of those are major works, but it’s not the first thing I would recommend. Get into the poems right away. If they don’t work for you, Bukowski may not be your cup of tea.

MOA: What do you most enjoy about running Bukowski.net? What have you learned doing so?

MJP: I have learned that I need help, and that I have to trust people to help me. I tried to do everything on my own for a long time. I am a control freak, and a little obsessive, if that wasn’t already comically obvious. But one day I invited a few forum regulars to be moderators, and the place is much improved by their presence. So I have to tip the virtual hat to Father Luke, Phil Tupman and Stephen Hines. They keep the forum on the level, and the forum is far and away the main draw on the site now.

What I enjoy most is when we uncover something that has previously been unknown and put it out there for the world to see and learn from. That happens surprisingly often, and it is testament to the tenacity and inquisitiveness of the regular users of the site. There are some serious scholars and researchers on there. I think we are slowly chpping away at the manufactured Bukowski myth and helping to create the portrait of the real man.

MOA: Barfly or Factotum?

MJP: Dominique Deruddere’s wild and beautiful Danish film, “Crazy Love.” For what it’s worth, this was also Bukowski’s favorite film adaptation of his work.

MOA: I would argue that, though there are several biographies of the man, reading his work offers the best portrait of Bukowski. Would you agree? What biography would you recommend?

bornintothisMJP: You’re right, none of the biographies offer what I would consider a complete portrait of Bukowski. I actually think the best biography isn’t a book, but rather the documentary film, “Born Into This.” Let the man speak for himself, you’ll see what’s what. Is there any passage in a printed biography that affected you as much as seeing him break down and cry while reading the poem “The shower” in “Born Into This”? The biographies are all dusty bones compared to that. But if I had to pick one, it would be Locked In the Arms of a Crazy Life, even though I think the author is a useless asshole. The less said about him the better.

MOA: Do you have a favorite Bukowski poem (or two)? He is perhaps even lesser known for his novels. Which is your favorite?

MJP: To me, the handful of poems that are the essence of Bukowski have to do with the pain of living in this world. Poems like “The Bluebird,” “The Crunch,” “Dinosauria, We”—those come from a raw soul who can’t come to grips with why the world is set up the way it is. Someone who feels the things in these poems has to have a defense, and I believe that’s why the Bukowski persona was born. As a defense mechanism.

Among the novels—the forum regulars are going to skewer me—but I really like “Hollywood.” The book is funny as hell. It may seem like a throwaway compared to a tour de force like “Ham on Rye,” but I’ve always loved “Hollywood.”

MOA: What does your personal Bukowski collection contain?

Bukowski BooksMJP: Gah, it would be easier to tell you what it doesn’t contain. I don’t have a few of the early chapbooks: Flower, Fist And Bestial Wail, Longshot Pomes For Broke Players, Run With The Hunted, Confessions Of A Man Insane Enough To Live With Beasts—those are expensive little pamphlets (and great titles!). One day I’ll pick them up, but most of the really old stuff I have is in pretty rough condition. I wait and wait and wait for a copy to show up that I can afford, and that usually means a beat up copy. But I can’t see paying three of four times what I pay just for the privlege of having a perfect copy. I kind of like the copies that look like they have been around the block. That makes my collection much less “valuable,” but if you believe the value is in the words, they are all there.

It’s funny, I put a “checklist” up on the site for those who want to try to track down all his books, and to check all the books off the list you’d have to track down 134 books, 91 of which are either out of print, or ridiculous Black Sparrow junk like books consisting of one poem wrapped in a fancy hardcover made specifically to sell to collectors. So I don’t own a lot of that kind of thing, but what I do own contains most of the work in those small or out of print editions. There are people in the forum who could check every one of those boxes. But most of them began collecting the books many years ago, before the prices got as high as they are today.

MOA: Why is Bukowski important? What does he offer his readers?

MJP: That’s a really interesting question. Is he important? I don’t know. In the grand scheme of things, very few writers are “important.”

He appeals to a certain segment of readers that may not otherwise ever pick up a book of poetry, and in that way, he is important. Much of his work speaks to a disaffected and marginalized audience. Many academic types dismiss him for that very reason: “Oh, Bukowski, Yes, I suppose for 15 year old boys he is quite the author.” Most of us are alientaed in our youth, yes, but some of us are alientated and pushed aside for most of our lives, so to assume Bukowski only has value to angsty kids who steal his books from libraries is idiotic.

There is humanity there, as I mentioned earlier, and humor. And those things are really in short supply in much literature. That is what Bukowski offers to readers willing to dig into his mountain of work. I think for everyone who finds Bukowski there is a different experience. Some are happy with the myth, that’s what they are looking for, others appreciate different aspects. One thing I have learned from the forum members is you can’t gather them all under one umbrella. Every kind of person you can think of is in there, and they all have their own reasons for appreciating Bukowski.

{ 6 comments… read them below or add one }

1 carol es 12.22.08 at 5:05 pm

Excellent interview. Really. No bias here, just very good reading. Thank you for it.

2 stephen hines 12.22.08 at 5:46 pm

good stuff. and not because you mentioned my name.
describes the forum perfectly, and the importance and relevance of Bukowski.

but Hollywood? really? ;)

3 Bukfan 12.22.08 at 7:21 pm

Great interview! MJP makes some valid points about Bukowski.
Thanks a lot!

4 Kevin Ring 01.08.09 at 9:13 am

Very interesting interview. What on earth has Howard Sounes done?

5 drowningboy 01.29.09 at 2:20 am
6 Andre Rodriguez 06.30.09 at 5:17 am

I liked the interview but wonder what Bukowski would think of Michael Phillips’. My guess is the Bukowski might laugh is ass off hearing him talk. I’m not sure if Michael Phillips isn’t just another stupid groupie. I’m sure Bukowski would him??



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